Interview of World Bank President Paul Wolfowitz by NDTV - Indian News

Interview with NDTV
Saturday, August 20, 2005

INTERVIEWER:  We are very pleased to have joining us on the program Mr. Paul Wolfowitz, the President of the World Bank.

Thank you so much.  It's a pleasure to have you with us here on NDTV.

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Thank you.

INTERVIEWER:  The world has changed a lot.  India has changed a lot.  The World Bank, which was once very important as a source of funding for a lot of things, is it still as important for a country like India as it once was?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Look, India has gone way beyond whatever it was 15, 20 years ago, so I don't know how to measure importance.  I do know that your Prime Minister feels very strongly that the World Bank has been a valuable partner to India for a long time and wants to see that continue in the future,a and that’s what I look at.  Obviously, we are a much smaller part of the total resources of this country, but I think we have some unique contributions to make.

INTERVIEWER:  I also ask that from the point of the demonization sometimes of the World Bank in certain sections, at least in this country, as a big organization which is out there to dictate policy to the government out here.  Three billion dollars, foreign exchange reserves of $140 billion, presumably means that the arm-twisting ability is a little less.

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  I'm not sure what it was in the past.  We certainly can't dictate policies to this country, and wouldn't presume to try.  You know, India's success in the last 15 years, which is so impressive, is India's achievement.  It is nice to have been a participant and to contribute to some extent, but it is your people who understood what this country needed, and obviously were doing the right thing.

INTERVIEWER:   Right, but looking at the partnership now in the period ahead where the exact quantum of the money that is coming in both goes to important and obviously newer and newer areas, what other ways does the World Bank want to contribute?  Do you think that your real role comes in identifying good projects, important projects, zeroing in on them and helping them grow?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Yes, and I think our emphasis really is on those things that can take some of this fantastic growth that India has experienced and deliver more of that benefit to the poorest people of this country.  That's where our focus is, and I know that's where your Government wants to work, and that's where I think we can make a big difference.

Another thing we can do, though, also--increasingly, India is not just a recipient of assistance, it is a potential donor, at least of expertise and knowledge--and I hope that by sustaining this partnership, we can help make sure that India's successes are available to other countries [inaudible].

INTERVIEWER:  Also a financial donor in some areas--India does give money to some other countries--IDA, for example, India started--

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  India has been--

INTERVIEWER:  --but financially, do you think it is going to become a donor at some point?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  I think there is no question.  The only question is when.  India is going to be, at some point, I hope in my lifetime and certainly my children's, one of the major economic powers in the world, unless--one can't assume that everything goes on, but all the ingredients are here to sustain that growth.

INTERVIEWER:   I think what you are trying to say is that India doesn't blow it, the opportunity is there.

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Yes.

INTERVIEWER:   Right.  Fair enough.

Now, looking at the opportunity over the last 15 years, you said that it has been a period of considerable change, of course, fairly huge growth.  Also, lost opportunities--do you think India could have done even better?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  It is presumptuous to say.  It certainly could have done better in the past; I think that's obvious from what has been accomplished in the last 15 years.  I think probably--and this is one of the areas that we want to work on with your Government--I think more could be done in the agricultural area, and this is in many ways a matter of public sector investment that the private sector can then build on.  And my guess is that with a little less bureaucracy, the growth rate could be a little higher.

INTERVIEWER:   A little less bureaucracy, red tape bureaucracy--that has pretty much been a problem, hasn't it?  Corruption--you may not like to say it, but that's another potential big area.

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Corruption is a problem in many countries, including the most advanced ones.  I mean, look at the Enron scandal.  It is not unique to India, but it is, as my predecessor said, a cancer that eats away at the development process, and I think it is very important to work on, and I think you and your colleagues in the media are part of the answer.  I think corruption is not something that can stand the exposure of the light of day, so keep it up.

INTERVIEWER:   All right.  We try, but as you know from the American examples, there is a limit to what the media can actually do.

Now, you said agriculture, and I am sure you have also been talking to officials out there about infrastructure, rural agriculture, rural development, infrastructure.  Those are clearly the worry areas right now in India, especially when you compare it to other countries.

What do you think some of the answers are, and what can the World Bank do to help?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Well, I think our notion is that of the $9 billion or so that we are prepared to commit to India over the next three years, roughly one-third of that could be most easily applied to rural infrastructure, to improving roads, to improving water and sanitation, and to helping provide electricity and other infrastructure needs.

INTERVIEWER:   Rural infrastructure in particular--we have been hearing so much about this $1 billion additional that has been asked for Bharat Nirman.  Is it possible to ramp up that fast to meet $3 billion or $4 billion in the near future?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Let's be clear--$1 billion is sort of a target of what we think we are prepared to commit to and what we think might be achieved.  But to get there, you have got to go through a series of specific requests for specific projects, and those projects have to be evaluated and implemented.

So we aren't there yet, but I think it is a realistic number.

INTERVIEWER:   Are there a lot projects out there for rural infrastructure or for infrastructure in general--are there a lot of projects out there which need the funding, and that's really what is required, or when you look around, are you not able to actually identify too many?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Oh, I think there are a lot of them.  Just look at the water situation in India.  I have heard different numbers, but India is not short on water resources, but most of it goes out to the sea, unused.  Clearly, your agriculture would be enormously more productive if the water were better managed, and that is partly, remember, public sector investment.

INTERVIEWER:   I think what I am trying to get at is is the growth problem a lack of funding, a lack of financing for those projects, or other areas--you mentioned bureaucracy, red tape, lack of political will, perhaps, to really push through some of the projects that need to be done--too much sand in the cogs, in other words?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  I think it all becomes part of the package, but when somebody says "We're prepared to put some money on the table to get something done," and it pulls people together to solve those problems--and we're not going to commit our money until we see viable projects, but they are out there.  We just signed one yesterday for Maharashtra, which we feel quite confident about.

INTERVIEWER:   When you look at India today and you look at all that has happened in the last 15 years, how do you see the prospects from here on out?  I know the World Bank has recently said that you think China might start to slow down a little bit.  When you look at India, what are your hopes, your expectations?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  I'm going to hope you can speed up.  Look, I don't want to get into the business of predictions, because I think they usually turn out to be wrong, and it is hard to say what they are based on.  I think what one can say is that we see here some ingredients of enormous success which have been demonstrated in the last 15 years.  You see some areas like agriculture, where it is clear, at least from a physical point of view, that more could be accomplished; and frankly, you still see a lot of red tape that could be cleared up, and that would provide more potential.

So I think there is an up-side--maybe you won't achieve it, but I hope you will.

INTERVIEWER:   Well, obviously, part of the problem is--I know you felt it--that reforms will be required in some areas.  And certainly, India is a democracy, so you are already aware of what some of he left parties, and the communist parties have been saying about the World Bank dictating [inaudible].  How do you get around that in a democratic society?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  Well, for one thing, you helpfully point out that we are too small in this big country to dictate anything.  But Indians have to make their own choices.  I hope when they make the choices, they will understand the bureaucratic red tape is [inaudible].  It is not a matter of the World Bank trying to impose it.  I think we can sometimes help people understand what the facts are.  Then, they have got to make the decisions.

INTERVIEWER:   Is there a lot of stake for you personally in what happens in India?  You are somebody who has been identified with the rights of individual and the need to push individual freedoms forward.  Is what happens in India important given that you are trying to do this in a democratic set-up?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  I wouldn't say for me personally, but I think for the world as a whole.  I think demonstrating that you can have successful economic development in an open, democratic society is a good example for everybody.

INTERVIEWER:   All right. One last question, Mr. Wolfowitz.  Are you enjoying your new role?  There have been lots of roles; the last one was perhaps a little more noisy than this one is.  Are you enjoying your new role as much?

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  This is very exciting, and when you see the kind of progress that can be made in places like Andhra Pradesh the other day, it's very inspiring.

INTERVIEWER:   Thank you.  It's a pleasure to have you with us.

MR. WOLFOWITZ:  My pleasure, thank you.