Paul Wolfowitz Interview with Charlie Rose, May 30, 2007

Paul Wolfowitz Interview with Charlie Rose, The Charlie Rose Show

May 30, 2007

CHARLIE ROSE,HOST:  Welcome to the broadcast.  Tonight, a conversation with Paul Wolfowitz, the first television interview he has done since he announced that he would be leaving the World Bank. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, PRESIDENT, WORLD BANK:  I’m not looking back.  I’m looking forward. 

Are there things that I might have done differently?  Did I maybe ruffle too many feathers by talking about corruption, by talking about governance, by cutting off some loans?  I mean, there are a lot of misconceptions out there.  I mean, one of the ones that I hear all the time is I cut off -- you would think that I cut off all lending by the World Bank, but you just heard the president say it correctly, we reached record levels last year, $9.5 billion, the most we’ve ever done for the poorest countries.  We’re heading above $10 billion this year.  It’s not that I’m cutting it off; it’s that I want it to go to the people who are using it right.  And the people who are using it well don’t have enough. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  We had intended to include tonight a conversation with the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad.  He is a former ambassador to Iraq.  That conversation will take place later this week. 

Tonight, Paul Wolfowitz for the hour. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Paul Wolfowitz is here.  He resigned as president of the World Bank on May 17th.  His resignation takes effect June 30th.  He served as president since 2005, coming to the bank after serving as deputy defense secretary in the Bush administration. 

He brought changes to the bank and launched a major anti-corruption campaign aimed at recipient countries. 

He resigned following a controversy over a pay increase that was given to his companion, Shaha Riza.  She was a bank employee who had to change jobs after he became president. 

Today, President Bush nominated a new World Bank president.  He is former deputy secretary of state, Bob Zoellick.  He also had some interesting words to say about Paul Wolfowitz. 

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I am pleased to announce that I will nominate Bob Zoellick to be the 11th president of the World Bank. 

He is a committed internationalist.  He has earned the trust and support of leaders from every region of the world. 

He is deeply devoted to the mission of the World Bank.  He wants to help struggling nations defeat poverty, to grow their economies and offer their people the hope of a better life. 

This man is imminently qualified.  And when he takes his place at World Bank, he will replace another able public servant, Paul Wolfowitz. 

Paul is a man of character and integrity.  Under his leadership, the World Bank increased its support for the world’s poorest countries to a record $9.5 billion in 2006.  Half of this money goes to sub-Saharan Africa, home to some of the poorest folks. 

As Paul has helped steer more resources to these countries, he has instituted reforms designed to make sure that these resources are used wisely and achieve good results.  In these and many other ways, Paul Wolfowitz has made the World Bank a more effective partner for development. 

I thank him for his dedication to the poor and his devotion to the good work of the World Bank. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Paul Wolfowitz has served in five other administrations.  Presidents Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and George Bush 41.  I am pleased to have him back at this table.  We’ve had other conversations.  And I should make note of the fact that we’re going to talk primarily about the World Bank and his experience there.  I hope to talk to him at some point about Iraq.  I hope that he’ll write a book about his experiences, but this evening we’ll talk about the World Bank primarily. 

And I begin there.  Why did you want this job? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, really because of Africa.  I remember -- I guess it was seven years ago, during 2000, reading up on Africa in connection with our then presidential campaign.  And what came through was the desperation of Africa and the fact that in the last 25 years, most of the world has seen spectacular progress against poverty, especially in countries like China and India.  Sub-Saharan Africa was the one part of the world that was going backwards and had the plague of HIV/AIDS and malaria. 

I knew about the need.  So I came to the bank recognizing that this had to be the first priority for the bank.  And the pleasant surprise for me was to discover that Africa has really started moving forward.  I don’t want to exaggerate, I don’t want to say it’s the whole subcontinent, but some 15 countries, more or less, roughly a third of the population, seemed to be really on the right track now.  And that’s exciting. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And that’s because? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  More than one reason.  We tend to say -- and I think this is correct -- they’ve understood a lot about what makes sound economic policy.  They’re starting to learn about the importance of the private sector.  If you stop and think about it, all those half a billion people in East Asia and India that escaped poverty did it mainly because of jobs created by the private sector.  Africa hasn’t had that.  We can talk about the reasons, but they’re starting to change. 

But also there’s peace in parts of Africa that haven’t had it for 20, 25 years. 

We’re focused, as I think we should be, on Darfur.  It’s a running sore, it’s a terrible tragedy.  But Liberia, which I frankly thought might never see peace in my lifetime, thanks first to U.S. intervention and African intervention and now U.N. forces, has had peace for three years -- three or four years.  And it has a first elected woman president in any African country. 

Congo, Burundi, Sierra Leone, even the Central African Republic.  They’re in a -- and peace is the most important blessing.  It’s so much better than oil.  Oil is more often a curse.  Peace is unmitigated good. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  All right, we’ll talk about that and how you feel about a whole lot of other issues. 

This is what Steve Weisman said in "The New York Times."  "Paul Wolfowitz was ready to move on from the Pentagon in early 2005.  He had been thwarted in his effort to become defense secretary, national security adviser, and the war in Iraq had deteriorated.  So when the World Bank president came up, he jumped at the opportunity.  It offered him a second chance to redeem his reputation and realize his ambitions, says a friend who has known him for decades."

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It doesn’t sound like a friend.  It was not about ambition.  I just have to tell you, it really wasn’t, and it wasn’t about redemption. 

It was about a chance to make a difference, in a bigger way maybe than what I felt I was doing then.  And on an issue that I really care about, which is poverty and helping people have a different chance in life. 

I was American ambassador in Indonesia 20 years ago, and I dealt with the Philippines for three or four years before that, and I have seen what it’s like when people are struggling against the shackles of poverty. 

And Africa is such an important place.  It can’t be left behind.  And what’s gratifying to me is I think it really has a chance to catch up. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  You made it poverty hand in hand with an anti-corruption campaign, because you believe corruption is somehow what? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, my predecessor, Jim Wolfensohn, said it.  Corruption is a cancer on the process of development.  You can’t be serious about development and then ignore corruption. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Because the money never gets to the needy. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  First of all, it doesn’t go where it’s supposed to go.  That’s the first sin.  But in many cases, it’s much worse than that.  I met with a minister from -- former minister from an African country.  He said corruption destroyed my country.  It made -- turned public office into a chance not for public service, but for private greed.  And it produced civil war and tore us apart.  And the international community, he said, including the World Bank, just turned a blind eye while all this was happening. 

That’s just not acceptable.  And I think we’re changing. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK.  Why did you heave? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It started over allegations, which I’m very happy to say the board, after looking at all the evidence, accepts my affirmation that I acted in good faith and acted ethically, to resolve what was a difficult situation for the bank.  But I also recognize we had gotten to the point where it was really not possible to be effective and to do what I wanted to do for the poorest people in the poorest countries, and especially to do it for Africa. 

I think Bob Zoellick has a chance to carry on that same work and take it to a higher level.  And I will do everything I can... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  I want to stay with that.  But this is the first interview you have done on television, so it’s a chance for you...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  That’s true. 

CHARLIE ROSE: ... to explain to us exactly how you saw what was happening, what misconceptions there were, what you thought about, you know, what you did and why you did it, and how it became the subject of discussion about your future at the World Bank. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Look, you know, a lot of things go into -- I’m not looking back.  I’m looking forward. 

Are there things that I might have done differently?  Did I maybe ruffle too many feathers by talking about corruption, by talking about governance, by cutting off some loans?  I mean, there are a lot of misconceptions out there.  I mean, one of the ones that I hear all the time is I cut off -- you’d think that I cut off all lending by the World Bank.  But you just heard the president say it correctly, we reached record levels last year, $9.5 billion, the most we’ve ever done for the poorest countries.  We’re heading above $10 billion this year.  

It’s not that I’m cutting it off.  It’s that I want it to go to the people who are using it right.  And the people who are using it well don’t have enough. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK, but let me -- I want to divide this in two.  One, management and what you did there.  But the controversy that became the centerpiece of this, which is your relationship and what happened.  Just explain to us what happened so we can understand it from you. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  OK, but I don’t -- I mean, I don’t want to go into every gory detail. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  I understand.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Basically, I came to the bank.  I told them I had this friend who -- with whom I was very close, and therefore there was a potential conflict.  And...

CHARLIE ROSE:  She worked at the bank. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  She worked at the bank.  She worked there before I got there.  There was nothing illicit about this.  It was fully disclosed. 

I suggested that the best way to deal with it would be simply for me to have nothing to do with any personnel actions involving her.  And we went through a couple of months of discussions.  And the conclusion was that wasn’t satisfactory -- not my conclusion, but the conclusion of the ethics committee of the board -- and that she had to move outside the bank, and that I, as president, was responsible for making that happen. 

And that meant -- I mean, we didn’t have a right to tell her to leave.  I mean, I was the one who created the problem.  I did say, you know, I could resign, that might solve the conflict.  They said, no, no, that’s not the right outcome. 

So we felt we were heading for a practical solution, where she would be compensated for the damage to her career. 

I think the big mistake we all made, frankly, was we could have come to the same solution if somebody else had done it, and it might not have been controversial.  As soon as I’m the one making the decision, then, you know, if I had given her a nickel, it might have looked controversial. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK, but did you suggest you didn’t want to make the decision in the beginning or not?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  No, I did not want to. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  You did not want -- and you told the board or whoever, that was not something you wanted to do. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  That’s correct.  But now we’re getting into what... 

(CROSSTALK)

CHARLIE ROSE: ... I’ve got to have this. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I said, I said...

CHARLIE ROSE:  This is the first interview you’ve done and people want to hear from you, not from Bob Barnelli (ph)...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It’s not something I wanted to do.  Absolutely not. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  You did not want to set compensation for her. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And I didn’t want to tell her to leave.  I mean, she was angry about it.  So I was -- but I was the president of the organization.  And it was the organization’s problem. 

And I think there was misinterpretation among myself and the board members involved.  I’m not here to cast blame.  In fact, I said, you know, the one thing I should not have done was put -- let myself be put in the middle of it. 

But I didn’t volunteer.  I wasn’t looking to reward her.  I wasn’t looking to do her any favors.  I didn’t think I was doing her any favors.  And as I said, I believe I acted ethically.  I believe I was acting in the best interests of the institution.  And the board has accepted that.  And I’m glad they did. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And where is she now? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  She is on this external assignment that was part of the arrangement. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  She’ll come back to the bank?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  That’s up to her and the bank.  And believe me, I’m going to have nothing to do with it. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Must be tough for a relationship to do this kind of -- go through this.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It’s not been easy.  But she’s quite a remarkable, wonderful person. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  A Muslim. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  A Muslim, feminist.  An Arab Muslim...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Intellectual.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Very bright.  Oxford-educated.  Very impressive.  Very committed to the idea of gender equality.  Very committed to the idea of development, but.... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Painful for her, to say the least. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I think it’s been tough for everybody involved, frankly. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  You have said the media -- you asked some questions of the media in things that I have read that you have said. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I’m not blaming anyone.  It was -- I saw a headline that said I’m blaming the media.  I’m saying people reacting to reports in the press that I believe were inaccurate.  I don’t know where they came from.  If I had read some of those allegations that, you know, sounded like I was just out of the blue out to give some generous reward to a friend of mine, I’d be pretty angry also.  And the anger got stoked.  And for a long time, I wasn’t able to state my side of the story, because this was under discussion in the board, and it would have been a violation.... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK, but your side of the story is.... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  What I just told you. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  What you just told me.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Yes, yes.

CHARLIE ROSE:  That you didn’t want to do this, but the board said you’ve got to do this.  And you set this compensation, and that was it. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Let’s put it this way: I thought the board, the ethics committee was telling me I had to do it.  I think we all share some responsibility in this.  I’ve acknowledged mine. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  It has also been written about that people at the bank had it out for you because they didn’t think that someone who played the role that you had in the war ought to be there. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Look, there were some people who had that view from the beginning.  That’s not a secret.  But I think there were other people who -- I’m not looking back.  We were at a point -- to me, it was clear and this is what I said -- where if I tried to stick around, I might have persuaded some number of people that what I did was OK.  But there were too many people that were too upset, and it was getting in the way of doing the business of the organization. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  So in the interest of the organization, you... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, I’ll put it this way: In the interest of the people we’re supposed to serve, which is the purpose of the organization. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  The people who the bank benefits. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Right.  Right. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  But... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Particularly the Africans. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK.  But it’s also said that at the time, that when you came there, that rather than reaching out to the bank -- a lot of people have written this, including David Brooks and a lot of others -- who said that this whole controversy about her leaving and her compensation was simply not an important issue.  The important issue was that Paul Wolfowitz was not a good manager.  Paul Wolfowitz did not take time to reach out to other people in the bank.  And finally, that they in the end had all these grievances, and this issue gave them an opportunity to get him. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Look, I don’t think I’m a bad manager.  I just give, you know, when I ran the American embassy in Jakarta, we were rated one of the four best managed embassies the year we were inspected.  And I reached out to many people.  Obviously, I ruffled some feathers as well.  And they are -- it’s an organization of 10,000 people.  Some are going to be with you; some aren’t. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Did you know, when you brought your own people there, did you know this was happening?  Did you have any sense that this is a real opportunity for me?  That I ought to do something?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I brought a lot of people to the bank, let me be clear about this.  I brought people I’d never met before, like a Swedish banker, who is doing a great job running the IFC.  I brought an Italian banker I didn’t know who’s doing a great job as the chief financial officer.  I brought the former foreign minister of Spain, who is a woman, who is now the general counsel of the bank. 

One of the things I’m proudest of is I found and recruited two African women, both of them former ministers, and again I didn’t know them before this job -- one from Nigeria, one from Botswana -- who bring to the bank not just being African women, which I think is an important quality in and of itself, but the experience of actually having been a minister in a developing country.  And believe me, I think that’s more valuable education than any number of graduate degrees. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Believe me, I want to talk about Africa, but I mean, these are things that you haven’t spoken to. 

One, this is David Ignatius.  "Wolfowitz has failed at the World Bank not because his underlings were out to get him -- although many probably were -- but because he treated the organization itself as an enemy." 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, that’s not true.  I mean, I’ve come to enormously admire many, many people in that organization, and I worked closely with them, and I’ve got quite a few, although it wasn’t an easy thing ever to say in public, who said I hope you’ll stay, because I like the kinds of changes you’ve introduced. 

So did I win everybody over?  No.  Did I ruffle some feathers?

CHARLIE ROSE:  Did you try is the question? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I tried very hard, but I also was determined to get some results.  And I -- sometimes you’ve got to choose one or the other.  Maybe I chose -- let me give you an example.  We had this issue over the Chad/Cameroon pipeline.  It was actually an issue that arose even before I came to the bank.  I think there were demonstrators outside the bank, saying why is the bank lending money to a corrupt government and to rich oil companies to make money when it should be helping the poor? 

And we made an agreement, which was, I think, a very good agreement -- and the demonstrators were right about this -- that said a significant portion of the oil revenues -- actually, the oil royalties -- have to be devoted to poverty programs.  Fine. 

I got there.  About three or four months after I got there, around November, December of `05, the government of Chad basically said, "well, we don’t like this agreement, we’re going to tear it up."  And at that point, I said, OK, well, then we’re going to suspend lending to Chad. 

Now, I think some people thought I should have consulted more widely before I made that decision.  Some people may think I shouldn’t have made that decision at all. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  I remember the controversy. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I don’t think there was any easy course.  I believe the soft course of not confronting the problem would actually have made things much worse.  And I do believe the end result, which was to get a new agreement, actually a better agreement with the government, took us about five or six months but it got us back on track.  I think it was the right thing to do.  Maybe it ruffled some feathers.  Maybe some members of my board felt they were inadequately consulted.  If that’s the case, you know, I’m sorry about that.  But sometimes you have to make tough calls. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  When you say without regrets, I mean, you know, you -- that you might have reached out, you may have -- this is what David Brooks says.  "Let’s say you’re a Republican appointed to an important job in Washington.  You’ll probably find that 90 percent of the people who work in your agency are Democrats, as are 90 percent of the media types who cover you and 90 percent of the academics who comment on your work.

But here’s the thing to remember: There are Democrats and then there are Democrats.  A quarter of the Democrats you work with are partisans, but the other three-quarters are honorable, intelligent people.  If you treat these people with respect and find places where you can work together, they’ll teach you things and make you more effective.  If you treat them the way you treat the partisans, they’ll turn into partisans and destroy you." 

Is David Brooks right?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I think I treated people with respect, including some people I had serious disagreements with.  But for the most part, I found it was a very capable staff. 

I mean, let’s be clear.  I didn’t bring in some 50 Americans to run the bank. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  How many people who worked with you at the Pentagon came over to work with you?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  One.

CHARLIE ROSE:  One person.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And one person from the Bureau of the Budget, from the -- Office of Management and Budget. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Just two people that you brought in from outside...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  We brought two people...

CHARLIE ROSE: ... who were not at the bank when you came there. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Correct.  And I promoted a lot of people in the bank.  I am proud of having found a terrific water expert who happened to speak Portuguese.  He’s now our country director in Brazil.  I mean, I could go on. 

But let me go on.

CHARLIE ROSE:  Please. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I appointed a woman from Ghana who is a sanitation engineer as my chief of staff.  Her deputy is a wonderful young man from Ivory Coast, brilliant economist.  Working with them is a young woman from Belgium.  None of these are people that I knew before.  They’re bank staff.  They’re career people.  I mean, every single vice president that is there now, including ones that were there before I came, are people that I asked to stay. 

So I feel I have good working relationships with many of them.  Some of them may be angry because of a particular decision.  Some of them may feel that I didn’t listen enough.  But it’s not because I don’t have respect for them. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  What did you learn from this?  This experience?  You had a chance to go do something that clearly you believed in.  The idea of we can make a difference in Africa.  A whole range of opportunities, a range of forces that can come together, World Bank being one of them, can make a difference. 

You had two years there.  You learned what?  Not about the... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Charlie, I think I did make a difference.  I feel very good about what we accomplished in...

CHARLIE ROSE:  I didn’t say you didn’t. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, no, but that’s important.  And I’ll give you another example.  I mean, we have introduced a whole new policy, a rapid response policy. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Rapid response to? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  To emergency -- countries in situations of emergency.  And we define emergency in a way that didn’t exist before.  A country like Liberia that has a successful election is suddenly in a condition of emergency because the government has to produce results, and not in three years or six years, which is our normal timeframe, but in six months.  And that means our procedures have to move more rapidly.  It means that loans have to be approved much faster. 

It doesn’t mean you lower the safeguards, but it means you don’t go through the same kind of bureaucracy. 

Frankly, I think most people in the bank, especially the ones on the frontlines in country offices, trying to get the work done, would say there is too much bureaucracy.  And in fact, after we approved this policy, one of my vice presidents, again, one that I respect a lot, said, you know, if we can do this in the poorest countries, we ought to be able to do it in the more advanced countries. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Where were all these people when push came to shove, all these people that you say you work with and who were on board about making a difference? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I think... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Why did it turn out the way it did? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I think -- I’ll go back to what I said.  And I think it’s as simple as the facts didn’t get out in a coherent way, and it was difficult to get the facts out because I was constrained. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Just something you would do in all the things -- your heart was in the right place, your brain was in the right place and you were doing this kind of stuff.  It’s hard to believe, you know, that you couldn’t get your story out.  And that that led you to having to be where you are now, giving up a job you wanted very much to have.  And you and I had a conversation about this, as you remember. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And it’s a job I’ve enjoyed, and it’s a mission that I intend to keep working at.  I really believe...

CHARLIE ROSE:  But this job meant a lot to you, because of, you know, for all the reasons -- you believed in the work of the World Bank.  You believed it gave you a chance to show what you were about.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I still believe in the work, and I believe that we’ve set it on a much better course now.  I think it’s much more focused on Africa, and I think it’s much more focused on governance. 

And there’s no question, look, there is no question that pushing through this governance agenda was controversial, and that a number of our leading shareholders, leading countries, were concerned that what we were going to do was going to get in the way of the mission of fighting poverty. 

I happen to think that’s wrong.  And yes, I did take it on.  And yes, I may have, you know, maybe I took it on, they would probably say in too confrontational a way, but I think it has to be confronted. 

I think one of the ways we slip into bad habits and bad practices is that it’s awkward and embarrassing to accuse a country or a minister in a country of stealing money.  It’s not a comfortable thing to do.  And I don’t like doing it either.  And I didn’t like...

CHARLIE ROSE:  The people in Europe who were not upset at you because you were suggesting somebody was stealing money in a country, were they? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, we had, Charlie, .... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  They had -- European leaders, I mean, including the... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Everybody says, you’ll never find anyone who says they’re not against corruption.  Everyone is -- but then there’s the but.  They say, well, but, we can’t let -- our mission is development, not anti-corruption.  We can’t get too focused on corruption; it will get in the way of development.

I told you over and over again, we’re not cutting off money.  We’re trying to put it in the right hands.  But the fact is that we had quite a controversy in Singapore last fall over the governance strategy.  We had quite a controversy over the suspension of lending to Chad.  We had a controversy over several other loans that I think needed to be suspended. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And in your judgment, that’s what it was about, right there. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Maybe it was -- look, maybe I could have done it differently.  Maybe I could have consulted more.  Maybe if it weren’t me and somebody else doing it, look, I’ve said from the beginning... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Somebody who’s not an architect of the war, and all that. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I’m not an architect of anything, but somebody who is not so closely associated with a controversial Iraq policy, yes. 

But I do think you have to push.  And I think -- I mean, I saw in Indonesia, where I was ambassador for three years, that for much too long, donors, including the World Bank -- in some ways, the World Bank worst of all -- didn’t say boo when everybody knew that Suharto and increasingly his children were stealing money in a shameless way. 

And that doesn’t mean they should have cut off Indonesia, no.  But they should have been clearer that there are standards that are expected and standards that are going to be enforced.  Because when you do that -- and this is really important -- when you do that, you empower the people in the country themselves to take on their own issues.  And I do think that the most successful development comes when people in the countries themselves take charge. 

And that’s what’s happening in Africa.  Let me give you another -- I mean, John Githongo is a wonderful man, a Kenyan, who was a minister in the government, who actually had to flee to Great Britain with his files because he had found so much bad behavior in that government. 

It’s a very tricky thing.  If the bank then goes in and says, well, there are no problems here, we’re going to just lend money regardless, a man like John Githongo is disempowered.  And I think what we found we can do in Kenya is to distinguish between those programs that are actually making a difference and those where there really is serious misconduct. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Has the Iraqi war, your tenure at the World Bank, changed the way you see the world in any significant way?  In terms of what the world -- what works, doesn’t work, what assumptions are wrong, what new truths are apparent? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Look, I think every single day changes the way you see the world.  And frankly, I would say I’ve always seen the world as a rather complex place, where most of the decisions you have to make are not black-and-white; they’re not clear cut.  But at the end of the day, you’ve got to make decisions.  And what I would say... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  But you’re an intellectual...

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  You keep wanting to go backwards.  I want to say...

CHARLIE ROSE:  No, no, I don`t.  I want to understand how we see the future, because you come to the place you do with a set of values and a set of assumptions and a set of circumstances that in the end has resulted in you not being able to do work that you care deeply about doing. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, let me put it this way...

CHARLIE ROSE:  And so I’ve got to understand all this. 

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ: ... you say nobody understood.  I had...

CHARLIE ROSE:  You say nobody understood.  You say the media didn’t do the job. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  No, I’m not blaming the media.  I said...

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ: ... people reacted to inaccurate reports about the so-called ethics issue.  And once they had reacted, it’s hard to calm it down.  That’s all I said. 

I’ve heard from African presidents.  I’ve heard from African citizens.  I’ve heard from African corruption fighters.  I’ve heard in a very strong voice from Africans that they appreciate, No. 1, the emphasis I put on Africa, but secondly, the emphasis I put on governance.  And they understand it and appreciate it. 

And I had one former bank staffer, who had given up what has to have been a comfortable job in Washington to go and work in a very, very difficult -- in his country, which is a very difficult African country -- came up one night and said, "please, don’t give up, because we need the kind of focus that you’re putting on the tough issues." 

I have learned, and I believe it’s critical, that Africa is making progress, and the key to that progress is, in fact, people taking issues of governance seriously and not looking the other way when a dictator like the former Mobutu in Zaire puts $5 billion in a Swiss bank account.  One of the things...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Robert Mugabe and everybody else. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, don’t paint them all with the same brush.  The fact is now in Nigeria...

CHARLIE ROSE:  No, I wasn’t (inaudible) the same brush, he did, Mugabe...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  There are fewer Mugabes around.  Mobutu...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Mugabe’s crime is not putting money there; his crime is the way he’s running his country.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  The point is, there are people, for example, the head of the Economic Crimes Commission in Nigeria, who are seriously going after corruption.  And one of the things that we did at the bank that I’m proud of is help the Nigerians get $500 million back from Swiss bank accounts that had been stolen by the former dictator Abacha.  That kind of activity is happening.

The finance minister of Malawi came to see me about a year ago.  And he said, "my predecessor is in jail for corruption, and I have no intention of following his example."  That is I believe the new Africa.  And it’s not every country in Africa and it’s certainly not Zimbabwe, but it is a growing number of countries. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And how do you encourage more of that? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  You don’t encourage it by saying...

CHARLIE ROSE:  No, more people saying I do not intend to engage in corruption? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  You encourage it by putting the money in the hands of the people who are doing the right thing.  And you encourage it by saying no when you see money being stolen.  And that’s I think a direction that’s much clearer at the bank now. 

By the way, there’s much more to it than that.  If you look at our governance strategy that was finally approved by the full board in February after an incredible consultation process -- we went to some 40 countries, 3,200 people.  We got opinions from all over the world. 

It includes much more than just anti-corruption.  It also includes building up the kinds of systems that make it harder to steal in the first place, helping countries train accountants, helping countries develop sound procurement systems.  But you definitely do not do it by saying it doesn’t matter if some of the money is stolen because some of it will get to the right place.  It’s not -- we’re not the good government society.  We’re not doing this just for the sake of moral purity, but we are doing it for the sake of development.  And I think more and more Africans understand and are taking charge of their own future.  And I think if we take the right posture, we empower them. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  When I raised the question about what one learns and how one changes their assumptions, which I think is a legitimate question, you know, you have had expressed a strong belief in the power of democracy to make a difference.  How is democracy working in Africa?  What -- should the World Bank encouraging it?  And I realize the World Bank is not supposed to be in politics.  But you know, you have had such a strong belief in the idea of democracy.  That was part of the assumptions that had to do with the war in Iraq, was it not, on your part?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  We’d be in the whole hour’s discussion. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  One day, you and I are going to have that discussion.  Might be a question, you know -- are you writing a book or are you going to...? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  How can you resist writing a book? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Some day, I’ll write a book. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  On the whole experience. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  On several different things.  I mean, look, I would go back to -- one of my first experiences with this whole subject, including the subject of corruption, was when I was assistant secretary of state for East Asia some 20 years ago dealing with the Philippines.  And we saw a transition in the Philippines from a dictator, Marcos, to a democratically elected president, Mrs. Aquino.  And I think we saw -- it’s not a matter of just democracy... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And corruption declined and...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, it’s still there, but it went from Olympic proportions down to something at least less serious.  And a government that’s more stable and a government that has more respect from its people. 

And is it a perfect democracy?  By no means.  But I think representative government is government that’s more accountable to its people.  We come back to this issue of development.  I mean, one of the problems with the old-style African dictator like Mobutu is they didn’t care what happened to their people.  Their people could starve and they could live like billionaires. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And live in palaces and all of that. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And there are different ways to get responsiveness from government.  But having them be democratically elected is one of the more effective ways. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK.  What has to happen?  For all the dreams that you had, all the reality you thought was possible for Africa, for other parts of the world, what has to happen to make that real?  I mean, World Bank is just one small player. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, absolutely.  Look, I mean, one of the scandals is that here you have, for example, a country which most Americans have never heard of called Burkina Faso.  It’s once upon a time was called Upper Volta, just north of Nigeria, in a fairly arid part of West Africa. 

Their major product is cotton.  Seventy percent of the national income comes from cotton.  They can’t import one bale of cotton to the United States.  Our barriers to trade in the products that Africans produce are a scandal.  And the Europeans, similarly. 

Aid is important, but if people can’t sell the products of their labor and create productivity jobs, the aid isn’t going to go very far.  You cannot help Africa grow simply by handing out money. 

But also -- and this is why I’m encouraged -- it’s not going to happen just by things that are done by the rich countries.  It’s got to take a sense of responsibility by the Africans themselves.  And that’s what you see much, much more of. 

I’m very encouraged when I look at countries like Ghana and Tanzania, that have began, after many years of very bad economic policies, to start reforming.  The president of Tanzania was in Washington about a year ago, and I pointed out to him a very, very useful report that the bank does that shows the obstacles to creating businesses.  And his country ranked 142 out of 155.  He said, wow, this is terrible.  I mean, frankly, some other countries, they might argue with me about our methodology.  This guy went back home and said, we have got to do something to change. 

And I think -- I actually was in a poor -- very poor neighborhood in Dar as-Salaam, and I saw a man, a youngish man with about three or four women at sewing machines.  And it was really a shack.  But it was a small textile factory. 

I would bet a lot of money that it’s what they call informal, it’s illegal, it’s outside of all kinds of government regulation, and that probably is the case because the regulations are impossible to make your way through. 

If they can lower the level of the barriers to entering the formal economy, that guy can take his little shack and turn it into a textile factory.  And that’s happening more and more in these African countries.  And that’s what gives me reason for optimism. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Finally, what is going to happen in Darfur? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  That is a crime.  It really is a crime.  And I’m glad, very glad, that the president of the United States has taken up with a new initiative.  I hope the Chinese will get on board.  I don’t know -- I mean, frankly, if what it takes to get their attention is to keep the 2008 Olympics from becoming the genocide Olympics, then maybe that will get their attention.  It’s got to stop.  And I don’t -- I mean, I’ve talked to the Chinese a lot about this.  And...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Well, they sent somebody over there.  I mean, have they, as far as you know -- and you should know more than most -- changed?  I.e., are they bringing change in terms of what they are prepared to encourage in Darfur? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  They haven’t so far. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  They are the principal purchaser of Sudanese oil. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  The point is, they will get the Sudanese oil regardless.  And I don’t think they have to work so hard to curry favor in Sudan.  I think they could do the right thing and come out on top.  And I’ve tried to tell them that. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  But do you have a feeling they’re beginning to understand that or not? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I have a little bit of a hope that they’re beginning to understand it.  But I can’t...

CHARLIE ROSE:  You see no evidence. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I don’t see strong evidence yet.  But I think it’s starting to get their attention.  And I think they’re starting to think about the fact -- look, this is one of the good things about being part of an international community -- and we may use the word community a bit loosely.  But, you know, the -- I think increasingly, the Chinese want respect.  They want prestige.  They want to be -- they certainly want the 2008 Olympics to be a spectacular success.  And they start to realize there are trade-offs to be made here. 

I had a very interesting experience in China about a year ago.  I was talking with a very, very senior Chinese official.  And I was expressing my hope -- because it’s a real hope -- that China could help the poor African countries build roads and build bridges and build schools, because China has some capability to do that. 

And this man thought for a while.  He said something a little cryptic, but not very cryptic.  I said, "it sounds to me like what you’re saying is we have the wrong Africans talking to the wrong Chinese about the wrong projects."  And he said, "you said it.  I didn’t." 

But what that says to me is not all Chinese think alike.  And the ones that want to be recognized as a modern, advanced country do not want to be supporting genocide in Darfur.  And I hope we can force them to that choice. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Back to philosophy.  Should, I mean, a country that is prepared to go to Iraq to do what we did, shouldn’t we be prepared to do more in Darfur?  I mean, shouldn’t we have been able to overcome... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  We should have done more in Rwanda, Charlie. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Of course, I mean, absolutely.  Everybody knows that.  And those who -- those who...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, everybody...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Well, Bill Clinton has apologized.  He went to Rwanda and apologized.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  950,000 people were killed because we sat on our hands.  And...

CHARLIE ROSE:  I agree with you...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  But let me ask you this, but where would we be if we had done the right thing...

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  If we had done the right thing, and we were still sitting in Rwanda today with people, soldiers in the jungle getting ambushed?  I mean, there are no simple choices here.  That’s really one of the things I think. 

And I think, you know, people say that the U.S. is -- or that people like me want to see the U.S. go imposing its will on other people.  That, at least if I can speak for myself, what I want to see is a world where people can determine their own future.  That’s what the Filipinos did, with a little bit of support from us, when they got rid of Marcos.  That’s what I think the Rwandans are doing now, but they didn’t have a chance 10 years ago. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Because we failed to move, and the world failed to move. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  That’s right.  And the world failed in Bosnia. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And has the -- have we failed in Iraq? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I think we’re trying to do the right thing.  I hope it will succeed.  I don’t...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Hope and we’re trying, and hope -- I mean, there’s a reality on the ground there.  And there’s a reality for Americans and there’s a reality for Iraqis.  And it’s beyond trying and hoping, isn’t it? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, that’s another whole subject.  But...

CHARLIE ROSE:  But give us some sense of, I mean, you know, you’re...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I still believe -- and I think the evidence is strong -- that the majority, great majority of Iraqis would like a peaceful, stable country.  That what we’re fighting is not the majority of the people. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Really?  And is what we have done the best way for them to achieve that? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  That’s another whole subject.  There’s too much -- no, obviously there are things that should have been done differently.  But it’s a tough environment. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Are you the least bit -- the least bit believing that the things that you hope would accomplish would be accomplished?  The least bit -- in Iraq?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Oh, yes, the least bit.  But...

CHARLIE ROSE:  But not much more, or...?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I’m not here to measure.  I’m not current on it. 

I, you know, El Salvador fought a terrible, terrible civil war for more than 10 years.  I think 5 percent of the population was killed, which would mean a little more than 13 million people in the United States, and I think it finally ended in 1992.  And today El Salvador is one of the most successful economies in Central America. 

I’m not saying that’s going to happen in Iraq.  I’m just saying it’s a tough environment.  It’s hard to know at this stage what the future is going to be like.  But let’s also remember, there were no good choices there, given the regime that they had. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  What did you learn when you got to the World Bank you didn’t know?  I’m not now talking about whatever the buzzsaw you ran into, what you did or did not do.  Everybody seems to have an opinion about that.  People who think it wasn’t about what it was said to be about, it was about something else, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 

What did you learn?  I mean, you there in the middle -- two years -- of what was going on.  Clearly, you came to that job saying here’s an opportunity for me to make a difference.  We’ve talked about Africa.  What is it we need to do?  Too many of the people that inhabit this planet are malnourished?  Too many living on too little money?  Too many are not having a chance that so many others are?  In particular those in the developing world.  What is it we need to do?  I mean, what did you learn there?  Give us...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, look, I think one of the most important things we need to do is to open up markets so that when these people create jobs, they have some place to sell what they’ve produced. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK. That’s changing -- that’s change -- that’s a congressional thing, to change what the law of the land is.  Isn’t it?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Absolutely.  I mean, I think, you know, we close our markets basically to ethanol that countries, poor countries like Brazil can produce.  We close our markets to cotton that poor countries like Burkina Faso can produce.  We close our markets to sugar.  And it’s not just we; it’s the Europeans. 

I think also, though, I really believe in the value of development assistance, and I believe in it more -- I mean, I believed it when I went to the bank, or I wouldn’t have gone in there.  But I believe in it more now than I did then. 

You know, there is a view, you might say, among conservatives that we don’t need this official development assistance, because it’s the private sector at the end of the day that produces the jobs.  Well, it is the private sector at the end of the day that produces the jobs, but the private sectors needs roads, the private sector needs an educated population, the private sector needs agricultural extension services. 

You look at a country like Korea, which is one of the most successful economies of the last 50 years, and they had large amounts of help from the World Bank.  I think $25 billion over the course of our engagement with them. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And it’s a very strong economy. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It’s a strong economy, but it’s built on.... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  And so is Vietnam, by the way. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And Vietnam is getting a lot of support from the World Bank. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  How much?  Do you know? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It’s one of our -- I think it’s on the order of $700 to $800 million a year, but I don’t have the number in my head.  It’s quite significant.  And by the way, it gets more because it uses it well.  We are trying to put the money into those governments that are making the best use of it.  And we have a fairly complicated formula for figuring out what that is. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  We mentioned America’s role and what we do and how we use our force.  I mean, what’s the responsibility?  As we are in the midst of a presidential campaign, and one of the questions I hope is asked is, you know, what’s America’s role in the world and how do we exercise it?  And what have we learned? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, I will come back to Africa.  I think one of the things we’ve learned in Africa is that peacekeeping really makes a difference.  I remember...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Having people like the United Nations involved?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And having Africans who are trained to do their own peacekeeping, and having the United States where it’s necessary be the leading edge. 

I mean, Liberia is a perfect example, actually.  In 2003, there was a big debate.  Looked as though maybe a peace agreement was possible.  And this is a country that was, I mean, ravaged by civil war for 20 years.  And some people said it’s hopeless. 

The decision was -- President Bush finally made the decision to put in a, I believe it was a brigade of Marines, with a promise from the Africans that they would take over from us I think after three months or six months.  President Obasanjo of Nigeria kept that promise.  There were African troops there.  The Marines got out, which some of my colleagues in the Pentagon hadn’t expected would happen.  And then the Africans were eventually replaced by a U.N. force, which is doing a very, very good job.  It’s expensive, but it’s much, much cheaper than the alternative, which is having that country go up in flames again. 

The Democratic Republic of Congo, which is old Zaire, Congo-Kinshasa, has had a successful election that would not have been possible without a large U.N. peacekeeping force. 

And I guess one lesson is, we could use help from other countries.  The United States can’t do that kind of thing by itself. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  If there’s any lesson over the last few years, it’s that, isn’t it?  I mean, isn’t that a principal lesson that we learned?  That we live in a world in which there are limits on our power and that we need to work with other countries? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  We do.  But the other countries need to have some capability as well.  And I hope they’ll maintain it.

CHARLIE ROSE:  Are we recognizing in this century there are limits to American power that we didn’t think there were? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I always thought there were limits.  I’m not quite sure who thought we were unlimited.  And I thought the triumphalism, frankly, after the end of the Cold War was a little dangerous, actually. 

We don’t run the world. 

What I think, what to me is so appealing about the idea of democracy is it’s not American power.  Democracy isn’t something you impose on other people.  It’s something -- it’s empowering other people.  And I believe we have benefited consistently through history from other people being empowered, including our former enemies. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  I assume you mean Japan and Germany. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Japan, Germany, Russia.  I mean, we do well in a country -- in a world in which people can determine their own future.  And we, I think suffer when dictators take over. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  As you know, Joe Nye coined the term soft power.  Are we using soft power enough? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Is that too imprecise for you?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I think it’s too imprecise.  I mean, after all, we’re living in a world where we also have a threat of terrorism that isn’t going to yield to soft power very easily.  But I do think we could use more of it, again to come back to... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  That’s what we’ve been talking about, isn’t it? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Yes, I mean...

CHARLIE ROSE:  It’s encouraging all kinds of development.  I mean, that’s what it’s about.  Using our economic power to encourage development, among other things. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And also...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Caring more about values that transcend national borders. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  The whole emphasis on the considerable increase in our efforts on HIV/AIDS and malaria I think is a terrific use of soft power.  And I think it’s paying some dividends.  I think it sends a message to people in poor countries this we actually care about what happens to them. 

But we could do a lot more of that.  And the amounts of money we commit to it are still pretty piddling compared to what we’re capable of. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  There is this, and I’ll let you go.  All the polls suggest that the United States today -- because of Iraq, because of other issues -- our reputation, our credibility, our standing around the rest of the world is at a low place.  Do you accept that?  That that’s one of the consequences of Iraq and other issues?  Do you accept that? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It differs from country to country, but on the average... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Overall, yes? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  On average, I think that’s right. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Why do you think it is?  What is it about us that, in your judgment... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, I’ll give you an example...

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I think I’ll give you a counter-example which I think helps answer the question.  In Indonesia in December... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  The largest Muslim country in the world. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  In the world, where our polls were terrible, in December of 2004 was hit with this horrible tsunami.  The United States came in with incredible assistance, including helicopters coming from sea and... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Aircraft carriers.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And the polls on the United States flipped around from 3:1 against to 3:1 in favor. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  So what does that say to you?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  It says that when we send a message to people that we care about them, that we care about making their lives better, it has a big impact. 

And I’m not talking -- I mean, that’s not the issue in Europe.  The issue in Europe is a set of other things.  But in the poorer countries of the world, from Indonesia to Liberia to Rwanda or to South America, I think the United States should do more both to help poor people, but also to make sure that its message gets through, that we care about them. 

And you know, when they see that they can’t sell a single bale of cotton in the United States, that does not exactly make us popular. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  OK, you keep coming back to that.  If they can’t sell their products, they’re not going to like us?  Is that more important, do you think, than foreign policy decisions we make? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Oh, absolutely. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  That perception of the United States, whether they can sell their cotton... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  In Burkina Faso, they...

CHARLIE ROSE:  They couldn’t care less about American foreign policy, but they care whether they can sell their cotton? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  They care everything about -- absolutely.  And it’s -- they view it as American foreign policy towards Burkina. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Yes.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I mean, and I was taken to...

CHARLIE ROSE:  So it’s more important whether they can sell the cotton, say, to whatever they may perceive as the, you know... 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  They care about, you know... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  They care about... 

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  All politics is local.  I guess it applies here.  I went to a cotton...

CHARLIE ROSE:  The jobs give you a chance to educate your children...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Cotton mill plant in Ouagadougou, which is the capital of Burkina, and it was world class.  And they showed me how they produce terrific quality cotton.  And then they said with great bitterness, "and we can’t sell it in the United States, and in the meantime your subsidies are destroying our markets."  That’s what they care about. 

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  If 70 percent of your national income came from cotton, wouldn’t that be your biggest foreign policy issue?

CHARLIE ROSE:  It would be important one to me.  I can guarantee you that.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  And HIV/AIDS matters to them. 

So I mean, it’s not all negative.  I mean, they notice that we’re doing a lot on HIV/AIDS.

CHARLIE ROSE:  What’s the negative about?  The negative image of the United States? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  I’m not -- in places where people are suffering from poverty, the negative, where it is a negative, is if we’re perceived as being indifferent.  You know...

CHARLIE ROSE:  Indifferent (ph) and uncaring. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  But, you know, I’m not sure that that’s.... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  I’m asking. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, I’m not sure that is the image in many parts of Africa. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  I’m asking.  I’m not...

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  But that’s what they care about.  And if you talk about Europe, it’s a different set of issues.  It’s...

CHARLIE ROSE:  What’s that? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Well, it probably has to do with the...

CHARLIE ROSE:  (inaudible).

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  No, I think it has more to do with the use of force. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Right.  More to do with Iraq. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Use of force in general.  Kosovo wasn’t that popular in Europe, if you recall.  I mean, although at the end of the day, people liked the results.  But no one likes -- no one likes the use of force.  I don’t like the use of force.  But it...

CHARLIE ROSE:  You don’t like the use of force?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  No, I don’t, but it’s a controversial thing when you have to do it. 

And in the Muslim world, it’s a much more complicated issue.  And there, it depends -- look, in some significant parts of the world, it is about the Arab-Israeli issue. 

I can’t -- I’m not here to do polling.  I can tell you that for Africans, the one thing they care about is doing something for them.  And I was never once, not once, Charlie, never once asked by an African about Iraq.  All they cared about was what was I doing for Africa.  And I think it’s a reason why, you know, I don’t accept the fact that nobody liked what I did.  Large, large numbers of Africans... 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Liked what you did at the World Bank. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  What I did at the World Bank.  Really appreciated the emphasis on Africa and the emphasis on governance.  And I’m not sorry about that.  I feel if I got through with that, I think I’ve laid a good foundation for my successor. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Thank you for coming. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Thank you. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  A pleasure to have you on the broadcast. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Nice to be here. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Paul Wolfowitz, off to Europe.  He’ll be president of the World Bank until June 30th. 

And then what? 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Oh, lots of things to do.  But I hope whatever it is, I really hope part of it is going to be finding a way to make a difference in Africa.  I really think -- you know, first of all, I feel very strongly about it.  I feel very strongly that you can’t have 600 million people, particularly of sort of one general identifiable group, going backwards when the rest of the world is going forwards.  But I also think that somebody of -- let me be euphemistic -- of my political persuasion, to be speaking up for Africa has a special resonance and a special influence.  And I want to keep using it. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Again, thank you. 

PAUL WOLFOWITZ:  Thank you. 

CHARLIE ROSE:  Thank you for joining us.  See you next time.

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